I am going to go step by step with the 80k blog and see where it takes me. I see there are lot of great points, amazingly evidence based. I would like to read about it and summarize the contents to my liking. Based on the old articles, it is clear to us that we want to use our time in the best way possible to create as much as impact as possible. This could mean donating 10k euros a year or 100k $ a year based on what is possible and high impact.

You can be wrong

Deep down you don’t know what you want to do. We make wrong decisions all the time.

We are bad at predicting what will make us happy

It turns out we’re even bad at remembering how satisfying different experiences were

Some people imagine that the answer (to life) involves discovering their passion through a flash of insight, while others think that the key elements of their dream job are that it be easy and highly paid. - 80h hrs

We’ve reviewed two decades of research into the causes of a satisfying life and career, drawing on over 60 studies, and we didn’t find much evidence for these views.- 80h hrs

Boom! Passion and ‘what makes you happy’ and the Robin Sharma type of advice can go straight into the bin.

You’re passion can lead you astray - 80h hrs

You might want to become an ice cream vendor or a bus driver when you were young or even now. But there is no telling that you will be able to create the impact you need

Dream job

A dream job would have the following:

  1. You would be working on something you are good at

  2. Your work would have direct(saving lives directly) or indirect impact (donations)

  3. Flow while working; lack of major negatives (unfair pay); supportive colleagues

  4. Moderate amount of stress associated with you being in Flow can exist.

Shaking the foundation of everything you know?

Developing skill seems to be what I should focus on. Theoretically, I could be good at anything provided I practice and have the space to practice. So right now I guess this means to look for work in industries where I can create the maximum impact for the world over the 80k work hours of my life.

the evidence suggests that money and avoiding stress aren’t that important.

Money might be important to us to create larger impact, but it’s a relief to know that stress might not be as serious as I think.

Stress

Why are we talking about stress?

I have been afraid about stress. Stress can kill apparently. Should I be concerned?

What I actually want is to be useful/productive for a prolonged period of time in human services whether be it earning to give or research or directly solving a problem. I think it would be hard for me to work in a very stressful environment for the rest of my life or even a year or two. By that I mean what?

I want to successfully complete my 80k hrs and not die prematurely, because I risked bad cardio vascular profile owing to high stress or bad eating. It would be a shame to die at 47 of a heart attack for example. This should be motivation enough to look at the type of job or atleast how to live with stress.

What do you mean by stress?

There are two vivid cases of stress I can imagine. At least on 3 occasions I made a mistake and had to inform my boss later that I made a mistake. The last time I burried my mistake for about 6 months straight, only to see in the end that it was not an issue. I remember, the horror, the prolonger stress. Surprisingly, when I did take a look at the error again, it was not that big of a deal. Anyways, some of the worst days of my life. Life is much different now. Somehow the job I am in right now, has these review processes, they are very understanding that it is easy to make mistakes and I am almost not worried about such a thing within the scope of my job anymore.

Another example, is when I had to find a roommate for my current house, else I was going to loose around 2 months rent. The sad part was it kept prolonging for about 2 months the whole ordeal, as it was not the right season and people kept misleading me regarding taking the room. Totally not worth it.

I guess one of the times I was stressed about my master thesis was when my computer crashed at a very crucial point in the thesis, and I had to try different ways to bring it back to life. I don’t even mind this, as they were quite temporary. But the first two cases of stress are by far the worst, I would like to have nothing to do with it. I suspect even loosing a job is not going to be as stressful. Things where lot of my personal money is on the line, times when I feared being confronted by my boss because I made a mistake, and having crazy deadlines while things going wrong everywhere, are not really what I want. I want to avoid them as I suspect they will kill me mentally. I don’t expect regular jobs to be of that scale. Although I should talk to a few friends about it. I believe life in Holland and also Europe is much more relaxed compared to the West.

Is stress good/bad ?

”A widely used definition of stressful situations is one in which the demands of the situation threaten to exceed the resources of the individual”

Science seems to suggest that there is a lot of evidence pointing that STRESS is BAD. In this 80k hrs website they discuss it in detail. A quote from the website:

“This OSRev [Overview of Systematic Reviews] confirmed that work-related stress is an important social determinant of CV [Cardiovascular] diseases and mortality.”

Scared? But wait! Kelly Mcgonigal a leading doctor of phscycology in her TED Talk says otherwise.

Debunking Kelly Mcgonigal?

Stress has always been viewed as harmful. Kelly Mcgonigal says that it need not be true and that our view on the stress is key. Kelly bases her understanding on 3 studies according to the TED Talk.

  1. 30k people tracked regarding how stressed they were in the last year and if they viewed stress as harmful to their health. Based on who died using public records, they understood that people who viewed stress as not harmful, had the lowest risk of dying.

But what Kelly doesn’t seem to mention is the chance that the correlation need not necessarily imply causality.

”There is a simpler, less mysterious way of accounting for the results: people who experience stress but who suffer minimal ill effects from it come to believe that stress cannot hurt them, whereas people who do suffer ill effects come to believe that stress is harmful. Voilà, we now have the correlation those researchers found but with belief as an outcome rather than a cause.”- Robert Epstein

  1. Study at Harvard where there was a control group and a test group, with the test group being told that stress is not harmful before hand. The cardiovascular profile of the test group looks like the profile of someone with courage and joy.

This only informs us that the short-term impacts are not harmful. In other words this might point only to acute stress and viewing it the right way would lead to healthy cardiovascular proflies. But great. Not all stress is bad.

  1. A study of x people pointing to the fact that caring created resillience, when you “connect” with others in stress

With this I guess Kelly wanted to stress (pun-intended) the need to connect with people in stress and reach out to people as it builds better resilience.

When you choose to view stress in this way, you are not just getting better at stress, you are telling yourself that you can trust you to handle all the life-challenges and you are remembering that you don’t have to face them alone. - Kelly Mcgonigal

Kelly Mcgonigal’s take on stress towards the very end of her ted talk says this:

“Go after what is creating meaning in your life, and then trust yourself to handle what follows”

One, I am afraid she might have just pulled it out of her ass. How did she come to the conclusion. It feels right too, it resonates with the SITH, BUT… Two, What all classifies as creating meaning in your life I am not sure. Atleast help me with examples. This whole EA thing gives me meaning, but I rarely think about it while working. And I suspect the stress coming from work, might be it’s own thing not related to meaning.

Other research

The researchers found that heart disease and mortality rates increased steeply with every step down the ladder. -80k hrs

Researchers found on multiple occasions that even though some people had much high demands than their subordinates (for example people ranking higher in the military than the others), these people had twice as low mortality rates as their subordinates. An explanation for this is that, “It seems the negative effects of higher job demands in higher ranks were offset by the higher sense of control, but overall, higher job demands were still associated with higher risk of heart disease.”, says 80k hrs team.

Even in this case the authors themselves say that this might not mean causal data as the leaders might have had a predisposition to lowstress levels and that is what might have caused them to be leaders in the first place. Another argument by the authors is that the leaders might not really have high stress.

”Research also suggests that moderate levels of stress can have positive effects on job satisfaction and organizational commitment while reducing turnover intent.

In summary, research suggests the presence of stress that is harmful and stress that can be made/is useful.

A clinical assistant professor, an harvard alumini is cited by 80k hrs and unlike the 80k hrs website this guy goes on to give examples of good and bad stress levels, which is what we need.

What is good stress level?

“There’s good stress, there’s tolerable stress, and there’s toxic stress,” says Bruce McEwen of Rockefeller University, an expert on stress and the brain who trained both Sapolsky and Dhabhar - Clinical assistant professor

There is this constant talk in the 80k hrs website on stress that moderate amount of stress should help us. But what is moderate stress level?

The good, moderate level of stress is when the demands of a situation roughly match the abilities of the person to deal with them - 80k hrs website on stress

This looks like but FLOW, as discussed in earlier posts.

Situations we typically perceive as stressful—a confrontation with a co-worker, the pressure to perform, a to-do list that’s too long—are not the toxic type of stress that’s been linked to serious health issues such as cardiovascular disease, autoimmune disorders, severe depression and cognitive impairment.-Clinical assistant professor, no citation in the article! The author might have pulled it out from his ass.

THE POINT AT WHICH CHRONIC STRESS turns toxic is when it becomes unrelenting and traumatic, and when sufferers lack control and social support. “What we tend to mean when we talk about stress are the daily experiences of time scarcity, role uncertainty, social conflict and pressure,” says Kelly McGonigal,-Clinical assistant professor

To me this sounds like the cases of stress I had detailed in the beginning, which I obviously want to avoid, such as when large money is at stake or when I made a mistake at work and had to face my boss (who would fuck me with his disappointment) to clear my conscience.

Worst case if shit hits the roof, Cognitive-behavioral interventions can be looked at.

Conclusion

  • There seems to be quite lack of conclusion about causation and correlation in the research
  • Evidence suggests that acute stress can be beneficial. (No contest!)
  • It is important to think of stress as aiding the body and not causing harm, to feel energised and not be afraid.
  • Keeping stress such that you balance your skills and challenges, is important (keep work in flow regime)
  • High Autonomy and control might be able to offset high stress in the form of demands (causal-correlation confusion also exists here)
  • Social support to you and by you to others, can help you live much longer by creating the resilleance you need.

From the charts on conclusions 80k hrs website and harvard alumini webiste cited by 80k hrs, which I guess the respective authors just came up with, despite not knowing clearly if the data was causal or correlated, here it a chart from 80k hrs

alt text

My final 2 cents is this: View stress from the job, just the regular ones like finishing something on time, working on an unknown problem, doing something new, as something that energizes you. Know you can handle it and it is going to make you healthier. Deadly types of stress that last longer than a day, for large time periods, where in you have no sense of control is bad and damaging for health, and ultimately your purpose.

I am not that scared of stress anymore.

ToDo: Contact friends to understand stress level of different types of work in US. Some how with holand I am not too afraid, this countyr and its people are chill AF. It’s probably the whole Europe.

Long hours

I worry about long hours working. I immediately imagine a dull job in India, where I have to work 6 days a week without any vacation and long hours where in I bore myself to death. That’s just because of some poor Availability I have. But that need not be the case, and also I am quite well educated and prefer handling challenging problems. Unless I am going to be doing some business, I don’t see myself going back to India.

Anyways,

Evidence Towards the last year of my Bachelors, I think after I went to the college and came back (a period of 12 hrs), I still had energy to come home and clock 2 hrs of studies for my Gate exam. Hmmm.

During my work as a project associate in IIT, I remember regularly clocking a lot of time at work (more than 8 hrs). I remember doing multiple all-nighters to make sure work got done (mostly in fear of living up to the expectations of my boss), but nevertheless. There was one time when I had to submit a paper in 15 days. I pulled many all-nighters in that short period (12-18 hrs per day).

During my masters, there was a time, when 2 months straight, I had time to do nothing else than study. I ate outside as much as needed. I think I clocked around 12-14 hrs studies everyday even weekends.

During the entire 2nd year of my masters, I pretty much worked everyday. I had courses, internship, thesis. I saw no option but to do well in everything, which somewhat meant to clock as many hours as possible, as there was always things to do; and I probably worked for 8 to 14 hrs everyday, including weekends.

I mean what else do you do with your time? You wan’t to make the most of it.

Over the last year I have been clocking an additional 2 hrs at home (on and off), after getting back from an 8 hr work day. For the past 2 months, I have been doing an 8 hr job from 9 to 5 followed by 1 hr at the gym followed by 21 minute cardio, followed by ~2 hr work at home on other important things.

At my current work right now, although sometimes it is boring to work, the last week I was really investigating something, failing a lot. Many days, I just went back home because I was not paid to do it or that the gym closes soon and I have to be at the gym. I would have been happy to spend time and get to the bottom of the issue say if I was paid for extra hours. Here working extra hours is going to get me nothing other than make me closer to closure. I could just come and continue the work the next day, no questions asked. Working extra hours perhaps doesn’t generate enough extra value needed. If this was my thesis, I was the sole shareholder and I would have not cared one bit how much time I was spending. Work done was more important for me. Working 9 hrs a day for 5 days a week does not seem bad atall.

I mean what else do you do with your time? You wan’t to make the most of it. Relax? Well is it fun to relax?

All the above parts of my life, seem to have either some personal stake (very important to finish my masters well), involved a lot of money and I suspect had flow. If it was a data entry job, I would have probably hacked myself to death. But I was constantly thinking, maybe I was even enjoying it. Maybe I was in flow, because I could just keep working followed by more working.

In India, my cousin in finance, claims he likes his job, and I think clocks 12 hrs a day 5 days a week. My friend in a similar position in finance, clocks 12 hrs. I wouldn’t suspect the job of my friend at a news station needs him to clock any less than 10 hrs per day. My dad worked for the last 15 years in a job with 5.5 to 6 day workweek. He often came back home late. I suspect he clocked ~10 hrs, followed by the drive of 3 hrs/day.

People in the US like my brother clock 12 hrs a day to finish work (as claimed by him in the last 2 months). they do get paid real good. Most of my schoolmates work in the US and will probably settle there. I suspect I am over thinking this.

This was it, Say I am working in a startup, I should have no problem putting in long hours, considering that I will be rewarded heftily for my work, either in terms of money or any other useful gains. If I can make 100k $ extra, I don’t mind working for 12 hrs a day 5 days a week. The only other use of my time besides work would be to do other activities that would create more impact such as workout, cardio, writing and thinking critically.

As long as the job is not mind-numbing, putting in long hours I am afraid will not be a problem. So it seems that flow is an important criterion and probably “dit is het” (this is it).

Conclusions:

  • It is not impossible to work long hours.
  • I have worked long hrs all along in my past
  • India and US are great examples for people clocking more than the 8 hrs required.
  • Personal stake, hefty money motivators, along with flow would seem like the ideal partners for long working hour jobs

I can work long hours if I am paid good enough?

ToDo: Contact friends and get average time of work for the type of work they do.

Vacations

Ideally once a year, back home for 4 weeks seems alright, but…

During the time I was a project associate, before my masters, I didn’t have vacations. I took holidays to apply for masters and nothing else.

During my masters, I went away atleast once a year, but I suspect it is mostly because I was going to feel lonely in my city as all my friends left for vacations.

At work it has been 11 months, since I took a holiday. Going on a holiday implies spending money. It’s a really costly affair to take a vacation, and it’s not worth it to do so often. I am for some adventure, but the price I think outweighs the actual gains. However I am spending quite some money to go back to India to spend some of my mandatory vacations days (23 working days). I could maybe use these days in a different way by taking time off from work now and then to do other important things.

Including this year and last, I think I took a vacation once towards the end of the year. My only vacation I like is either to India, where I can do my own thing or to london where my cousins are at. My goal is to do nothing, and work on things that are important to me, with people cooking for me and I am doing my own thing.

Here I have 27 vacation days, sometimes I can have as much as 40 vacation days as opposed to the US where there is only 15 vacation days, but I guess I can deal with it, as have several others who deal with it as well.

Other considerations regarding your dream job

  1. Work that’s engaging

The freedom to decide how to perform your work. Clear tasks, with a clearly defined start and end. Variety in the types of task. Feedback, so you know how well you’re doing.

  1. Work that helps others

  2. Work you’re good at

  3. Work with supportive colleagues

  4. Lack of major negatives

A long commute, especially if it’s over an hour by bus. Very long hours. Pay you feel is unfair. Job insecurity.

  1. Work that fits with the rest of your life

You don’t have to get all the ingredients of a fulfilling life from your job. It’s possible to find a job that pays the bills and excel in a side project; or to find a sense of meaning through philanthropy or volunteering; or to build great relationships outside of work.

Summary

We briefly saw what we might like in a job. We saw that stress might not be such a virus, working long hours when in flow is not really a problem, and that vacation days are not really a deal breaker. More on this to be continued. :) <!–

References:

  1. https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction/#dont-aim-for-low-stress

  2. Youtube video by Kelly Mcgonigal on stress not being “harmful” : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcGyVTAoXEU –>